Much of literature is based around new generations of writers either rejecting the models provided by older writers or modifying them to suit new purposes. This would be a case of the latter.
Tolkien and Martin are two different kinds of writers. The former's writing is informed by his work as a scholar of old English language and literature, while the latter's is more directly inspired by a lot of the pulp fiction he read when he was young. So naturally their approach to the fantasy genre will be different. Tolkien virtually invented modern fantasy; Martin is doing it his way.
And it's not just with literature where this occurs. My own fiction is strongly influenced and informed by the animated films and television programs I have seen, specifically in retrofitting favorite characters for new environments and genres.
Inspiration is a wonderful thing. It lights up the imagination, gets that internal flame burning and, in the right person, can produce some fantastic results. I will admit that I'm not the biggest fan of Martin's work. I read the first Ice & Fire book about a decade ago during downtime on my honeymoon. Tore through the book pretty damn quickly, too, finishing it in about three, maybe four sittings across the two week trip. Unfortunately, the second just didn't have the ability to grab me. Try though I might, especially since I did enjoy the show at the time, I just couldn't make the same kind of connection in the second book that I did in the first. I put it down after three, maybe four chapters, (I don't fully remember how many) and never went back.
However, I've experienced the exact form of inspiration he's talking about multiple times in my life. Arguably the most notable instance of this was when I watched "Prey" two years ago and, by the end, found myself deeply disappointed that the writer and director failed to recognize how the Predator operates based on how the species is presented in the original 1987 movie and the 1990 sequel. That directly lead to me finishing the first novella I released here on Substack, The Demon from Beyond the Stars, which was my own answer to how more primitive peoples would deal with a creature like the Predator.
Similar inspiration struck me again about a year later, when I read the complete collection of Elric of Melniboné novellas/novels by Michael Moorcock. His takes on ideas like multiverses and dreams and how these could interact inspired me in much the same way, though from a more positive angle this time around. I started thinking about the idea of dreams as their own world. How would such a thing function? How would intelligent creatures interact with them? How would animals, who dream more simply, interact with these spaces? Would there be denizens of these "dream realms," and how might they recognize anomalies in a realm shaped by the subconsciouses of other beings? What about nightmares, what sort of adverse affects might they have? And, perhaps most importantly, what if someone found a way to twist the rules of these realms to their own ends?
Welp, I've gone and done it again, exceeding the word limit on a comment lol. I suppose it's appropriate, though. This sort of topic inspires a lot of thought in and of itself. Anyway, the inspiration from Moorcock ultimately lead me to writing my second novella, In the Giant's Shadow, which I'm already working to turn into my first physically published story.
Back on the topic at hand, though. You say something in here that, while maybe a little harshly worded, I nonetheless agree with: "But if [...] you don’t see things you would have done differently, I would say that you likely have nothing more to say in this genre." There's nothing necessarily wrong with following what you know and like, and putting your own spin on it. I've read numerous well written stories across multiple genres that did just that. But are these the best of their kind? No. If an enjoyable story inspires someone to write, that's a wonderful thing. If an enjoyable story inspires someone to think, and then those thoughts inspire them to write? That's where you have a chance at finding the potential for greatness.
"He’s not saying that these books are bad or anything even remotely similar. He’s saying, Had I done this, I would have focused more here." - Precisely. :) I'm a huge Tolkien fan, but let Tolkien be Tolkien and let Martin be Martin. :)
My first published book was inspired by a novel I read. By the time I got to the end, I had a what if question floating in my head and it turned into it's own unique story. Sounds like Martin kinda did the same in a way. He had a what if question and went to find the answer.
Have you heard of the theory that much (if not all) of the events detailed in Song of Ice and Fire is nothing more than a result of the political machinations and maneuvers between Peter Baelish (Little Finger) and Varys (the Eunuch)? In a way this ties into your obsession with the little people because those two antagonists come from disparate sides of the economic stratum. Baelish with his wealth and Varys with his ‘little birds’ and street urchins carrying out his wishes while delivering his messages. Any thoughts?
Indeed; I like both Tolkien and Martin (for my money, the best bit in Martin's series is the first book when he describes the difference between the Lannisters' war horns and the Starks' horns: I still remember that passage even though I haven't read it in years. Brilliant, that. Anyway, I agree with your take; indeed half my writing is angel stories because I watched "Good Omens" and I thought it was a good show, but I wanted to write a different take on angels than they did. Inspiration is funny that way.
When I saw you were going to tackle this “controversy” I rolled my eyes but this is the exact correct take. Sycophants worship a work and seek to make ever diminishing imitations of it, artists revere a work because of what it stirs in them and create work to offer as a counterpoint or argument or conversation to the original. It makes the original piece stronger. ASOIAF shows us a different view of Fantasy and by so doing elucidates more clearly the world of Tolkien and shows that the world was built- a product of artistic choices and not simply an eventuality that couldn’t have been imagined any other way.
No, sorry, I find Martin's question about Aragorn & the fate of Orcs rather pathetic, obnoxious, disingenuous, irrelevant in the context of the fantasy genre, hypocritical b/c he writes in the same genre & could be similarly criticized, & petty.
Much of literature is based around new generations of writers either rejecting the models provided by older writers or modifying them to suit new purposes. This would be a case of the latter.
Tolkien and Martin are two different kinds of writers. The former's writing is informed by his work as a scholar of old English language and literature, while the latter's is more directly inspired by a lot of the pulp fiction he read when he was young. So naturally their approach to the fantasy genre will be different. Tolkien virtually invented modern fantasy; Martin is doing it his way.
And it's not just with literature where this occurs. My own fiction is strongly influenced and informed by the animated films and television programs I have seen, specifically in retrofitting favorite characters for new environments and genres.
Definitely agree!
Inspiration is a wonderful thing. It lights up the imagination, gets that internal flame burning and, in the right person, can produce some fantastic results. I will admit that I'm not the biggest fan of Martin's work. I read the first Ice & Fire book about a decade ago during downtime on my honeymoon. Tore through the book pretty damn quickly, too, finishing it in about three, maybe four sittings across the two week trip. Unfortunately, the second just didn't have the ability to grab me. Try though I might, especially since I did enjoy the show at the time, I just couldn't make the same kind of connection in the second book that I did in the first. I put it down after three, maybe four chapters, (I don't fully remember how many) and never went back.
However, I've experienced the exact form of inspiration he's talking about multiple times in my life. Arguably the most notable instance of this was when I watched "Prey" two years ago and, by the end, found myself deeply disappointed that the writer and director failed to recognize how the Predator operates based on how the species is presented in the original 1987 movie and the 1990 sequel. That directly lead to me finishing the first novella I released here on Substack, The Demon from Beyond the Stars, which was my own answer to how more primitive peoples would deal with a creature like the Predator.
Similar inspiration struck me again about a year later, when I read the complete collection of Elric of Melniboné novellas/novels by Michael Moorcock. His takes on ideas like multiverses and dreams and how these could interact inspired me in much the same way, though from a more positive angle this time around. I started thinking about the idea of dreams as their own world. How would such a thing function? How would intelligent creatures interact with them? How would animals, who dream more simply, interact with these spaces? Would there be denizens of these "dream realms," and how might they recognize anomalies in a realm shaped by the subconsciouses of other beings? What about nightmares, what sort of adverse affects might they have? And, perhaps most importantly, what if someone found a way to twist the rules of these realms to their own ends?
Welp, I've gone and done it again, exceeding the word limit on a comment lol. I suppose it's appropriate, though. This sort of topic inspires a lot of thought in and of itself. Anyway, the inspiration from Moorcock ultimately lead me to writing my second novella, In the Giant's Shadow, which I'm already working to turn into my first physically published story.
Back on the topic at hand, though. You say something in here that, while maybe a little harshly worded, I nonetheless agree with: "But if [...] you don’t see things you would have done differently, I would say that you likely have nothing more to say in this genre." There's nothing necessarily wrong with following what you know and like, and putting your own spin on it. I've read numerous well written stories across multiple genres that did just that. But are these the best of their kind? No. If an enjoyable story inspires someone to write, that's a wonderful thing. If an enjoyable story inspires someone to think, and then those thoughts inspire them to write? That's where you have a chance at finding the potential for greatness.
Definitely agree
"He’s not saying that these books are bad or anything even remotely similar. He’s saying, Had I done this, I would have focused more here." - Precisely. :) I'm a huge Tolkien fan, but let Tolkien be Tolkien and let Martin be Martin. :)
My first published book was inspired by a novel I read. By the time I got to the end, I had a what if question floating in my head and it turned into it's own unique story. Sounds like Martin kinda did the same in a way. He had a what if question and went to find the answer.
Have you heard of the theory that much (if not all) of the events detailed in Song of Ice and Fire is nothing more than a result of the political machinations and maneuvers between Peter Baelish (Little Finger) and Varys (the Eunuch)? In a way this ties into your obsession with the little people because those two antagonists come from disparate sides of the economic stratum. Baelish with his wealth and Varys with his ‘little birds’ and street urchins carrying out his wishes while delivering his messages. Any thoughts?
Interesting! I haven't heard that but it ties in with my original theory of how it would all end.
I think this theory largely makes sense, since Varys wants to bring back the old regime and Baelish wants chaos so he can rose to take power.
Indeed; I like both Tolkien and Martin (for my money, the best bit in Martin's series is the first book when he describes the difference between the Lannisters' war horns and the Starks' horns: I still remember that passage even though I haven't read it in years. Brilliant, that. Anyway, I agree with your take; indeed half my writing is angel stories because I watched "Good Omens" and I thought it was a good show, but I wanted to write a different take on angels than they did. Inspiration is funny that way.
When I saw you were going to tackle this “controversy” I rolled my eyes but this is the exact correct take. Sycophants worship a work and seek to make ever diminishing imitations of it, artists revere a work because of what it stirs in them and create work to offer as a counterpoint or argument or conversation to the original. It makes the original piece stronger. ASOIAF shows us a different view of Fantasy and by so doing elucidates more clearly the world of Tolkien and shows that the world was built- a product of artistic choices and not simply an eventuality that couldn’t have been imagined any other way.
No, sorry, I find Martin's question about Aragorn & the fate of Orcs rather pathetic, obnoxious, disingenuous, irrelevant in the context of the fantasy genre, hypocritical b/c he writes in the same genre & could be similarly criticized, & petty.
Baby orcs don’t come from cradles. The mediocre leading the blind.